TAGS
ON CAMPUS
STUDENT LIFE
OFF CAMPUS
EDUCATION

GOVERNMENT
MONEY
COOL
VARSITY BLUES
UTSU
ADMINISTRATION
BIOLOGY
ART
MUSIC
FOOD & DRINK
ELECTIONS
IN THE LAB
FACULTY
TECHNOLOGY
HEALTH
FILM
PROFILE
NUMBERS
INTERVIEW
LITERATURE
PSYCH
BRIEFS
THEATRE
LOVE & SEX
DESIGN
GENDER
ENVIRONMENT
LONG FORM
POP CULTURE
THE VARSITY
SPACE
LAW
PRO SPORTS
SIMCOE HALL
TORONTO
HUMAN RIGHTS
MISSISSAUGA
UTSU DEFEDERATION
FROSH
SCARBOROUGH
PHOTOGRAPHY
INFOGRAPHICS
FAITH
BEST OF 2012
GUIDES
LGBTQ
FASHION
RACE
DRUGS
ALUMNI
EUREKA
EDITORIAL
DANCE
SGRT
RELIGION
JOURNALISM
INTRAMURALS
JOB MARKET
COMMUTE
INVESTIGATIVE
PODCAST
University of Toronto's Student Newspaper Since 1880

Be fair to Rona Ambrose

Canada’s Minister for the Status of Women didn’t vote against abortion, she voted for inquiry

By Carter West
Published: 11:54 am, 8 October 2012
under

When do we start being human? It’s a good question that I don’t know the answer to. Come to think of it, I can’t imagine anyone with good sense giving a matter-of-fact response to such a disastrously vague query.

The criminal code obviously needs to say something about it — or else we’d all be free to knock off a couple toddlers as we take our morning stroll — and it does: a human life officially starts after fully exiting the mother. This is a sensible position. Given the amount of opinion that lies between “every sperm is sacred” and certain former practices of the Chinese government, recognizing birth as life manages to pull off a relatively non-controversial stance on an issue that inevitably is controversial. The opinion of the criminal code does not claim to be the final answer, but it is our current answer, and that’s good enough for a law.

DAVEOGRAPHY.CA/FLICKR

Unfortunately, Rona Ambrose, the Minister for the Status of Women, threw her lot in with those wishing to ask questions about the validity of the current legal position on the subject. On September 26, a motion to set up a parliamentary committee to assess our current definition of when life begins was defeated in the House of Commons by a 203–91 vote. There weren’t many interesting things about this vote; a number of conservative ministers voted in favor of the motion against Stephen Harper’s wishes. Still, as the motion was deemed an issue of conscience, the political ramifications on Harper’s leadership are slight.

In the commentary and news coverage that immediately following the vote, you could sense the disappointment at the empty nooks and crannies of a story that, by all rights, ought to have provided at least a news cycle’s worth of material. But cleverer journalists were not to be deterred. Luckily some media outlets made reference to Ms. Ambrose’s name, her position as minister responsible for the Status of Women, and her vote in favour of the motion. And so the game began.

There are currently 12, 259 individuals who have signed a petition calling for Ambrose’s resignation. A bevy of pro-choice women’s rights organizations have entered the ring, taking swift shots at the conservative cabinet minister. The NDP too have sensed the opportunity to score political points and have been keen on showing us the depth of their disappointment. Why? Because apparently Ambrose’s decision to vote in favor of a motion that acknowledged that we do not know the answer to a very difficult question means that she never wants a woman to have an abortion again and hopes that women everywhere will be disenfranchised by government processes.

To be fair, the motion was introduced by a well known social conservative who may have long term plans to reopen debate over Canada’s policy on abortion. The motion, however, wasn’t really about abortions. And the argument that Ms. Ambrose ought to resign her position because her vote proves she does not represent women requires an even greater leap in logic. Yes, most women in this country support a woman’s right to have an abortion and a vote to take away that right would justifiably have landed Ambrose in hot water.

But that is not what she voted for.  Ambrose voted for a motion to have a panel of MPs study a question to which few us can provide a definite answer.

  • Karen Krisfalusi

    Motion M312 definitely WAS about abortion. As was Roxanne’s Law. As are the countless petitions tabled by conservative MP’s in the HoC calling on the government to restrict abortion to the fullest extent of the law. Our federal government ‘reopened’ the abortion debate despite a promise to the electorate not to. Therefore I see absolutely no reason to cut Minister Ambrose an inch of slack.

    • Anon

      Dogmatism is bad in both directions. Debate is good. It’s just unfortunate that there are dogmatic Christians on one side who are not imbued with the desire to learn the truth, because their truth was settled already and for all time by a holy book. On the other side, pro-choice groups also believe for more difficult to pin-down reasons that any debate on this issue is an affront to their rights.

      Everything is up for debate.

      I remember women holding up signs at an abortion debate at my old university which read that their bodies are not up for debate.

      Of course they are. Why? The other side of the debate could be right. Maybe women do not have the same right to their body when pregnant as otherwise. After all, the other side of the debate believes that abortion is something like murder. This is a serious claim and, although I think it is bogus, I cannot be sure. As John Stuart Mill once wrote, “We can never be sure that the opinion we are endeavouring to stifle is a false opinion; and if we were sure, stifling it would be an evil still.”

      Let inquiry continue. One should not feel threatened by inquiry in a democracy for without free inquiry there would be no democracy.

  • Anon

    I don’t think anyone is against inquiry. The inquiry in this case in misguided from the get-go. It’s not a question of when an egg/sperm combo becomes a human life. Presumably the earliest form of life in a womb (i.e. embryo) is a human being – it’s not a goat or a cow, after all. It’s perfectly human. That’s not the significant moral question. The significant moral question is when that embryo becomes a moral person.

    That’s a more difficult question to answer. I agree with what I think is the spirit of this article though. When a fetus slips out of the birth canal is not a significant place to draw a moral line. My view is that although we shouldn’t be allowed to lop-off toddlers on our morning stroll, moral person-hood is a much later occurrence (i.e. when a toddler develops a sense of self-consciousness).

    Before self-consciousness, human infants are not significantly different from other animals.

  • Hardy Weinberg

    To be fair, Rona Ambrose only takes bills at face value and generally doesn’t bother to look into the repercussion such bills may have.

  • A. R

    What a lazy (and misogynistic) analysis of the real issue at hand. There is NO PURPOSE for opening an “inquiry” into the definition of a life other than to control and regulate women’s bodies. Of course this article is written by a man (surprise, surprise). Also funny how although Carter claims we can’t decide when life begins, he is very comfortable decreeing the proper treatment Ambrose deserves. It would be a beautiful, wonderful thing is males could leave their entitlement at the door and try to remember that they don’t have uterus’. They don’t carry babies. They don’t give birth to babies.
    But hey, we have freedom of speech here so you can say whatever you want. I have no right to stop you from saying what you think. With that being said, how dare anyone ever try to stretch their control over the private dominion of a woman’s own body, sexuality and her very person-hood. You might have the power to dump any personal self-indulgence into a newspaper article, but you will NOT have that power amplified a thousandfold (to the power of a million) over my body. Step off. This isn’t a philosophical debate, it’s an attack.

    • Anon

      These ad hominum and emotive arguments based on nothing will not win this for your side.

      • A. R

        Sorry–did you mean the practical and concrete evaluations of the real issue at hand? There is nothing written above that is purely an imaginary belief of mine. Belittling my points as emotive embodies the arrogance and detestable attitudes of misogynists towards facts they have difficulty reckoning with. It is much easier to dismiss someone when you can claim they are “over-emotional”, isn’t it? This is another way of exhibiting your complete lack of perspective towards the issue. When your body is under threat and your right to be a citizen with control over your future is threatened, I hope you muster up the same zeal to defend your basic rights. Luckily for you, you are (clearly) a man and do not have to face such disrespect at this historical moment.
        You may view yourself as a chancellor of some sort of intellectual quest but the fact is that supporting any form of sanctioning abortion is a way to put sexist limitations on women’s bodies and lives. Also, my points above happen to be some of the very points which has led to abortion being legalized in contemporary society. Good luck swaying the debate in your favour with ostentatious language and pretentious philosophical abstractions, while others of us use reality to ground our reasoning.

        • hbg

          Being as highly intelligent and consistent as you sound AR, it must also be clear
          to you that sterile women and especially those who have had a hysterectomy are
          not capable of commenting on this issue either, like you said “They don’t give birth to babies.” Of course, it’s obvious not having a uterus
          precludes anyone from the magical uterusy thinking required to truly understand
          the issue at hand. This is totally not an
          illiterate’s argument in defense of abortion.

          Oh who am I kidding,
          you sound like a total idiot. Aside from
          your mindless assertion that men are simply unable understand and empathize
          with someone’s desire for bodily autonomy- a completely moronic position; your
          main point seems to be this article is misogynistic and patriarchal (and
          written by a man !LOL!) and these are bad things, and bad things do not need to
          be addressed. No effort establishing
          that this debate is really about dominating women and their bodies. This might blow your mind, but some of us see
          the issue a little differently, in fact, some of us recognize the independent
          agency of another player in some cases of abortion.

          Yes, some of
          us think that defining the beginning of human life as ‘something which has
          successfully emerged from a uterus and has a pulse’ is an arbitrary and stupid
          definition, and is an incoherent notion of what it is to be human. While I think it’s safe to say that an embryo
          and early stages of fetus development lack all important characteristics of a
          human, at some point we must admit that the fetus has become fully human – failure
          to do so must lead to the conclusion that the baby still is not fully human
          after birth, and that this ‘becoming’ event occurs further down the road (guilt
          free post-birth abortions anyone?).

          You may be
          surprised, despite being male, that I empathize greatly with people who are
          being attacked, and have their freedom and autonomy stripped from them. I am haunted by the stories of human cruelty
          I read in the papers daily, and am disgusted by the way some states treat
          people, women especially, without equality.
          However in this case I do see a compelling state interest in temporarily
          withholding personal autonomy, and that is to protect the life of a human being. In many cases the state has an interest
          temporarily suspending an individual’s autonomy: military duty, leaving the
          scene of an accident, court appearances, jail time, medical quarantine. In each of the aforementioned cases, the
          state has a legitimate cause in temporarily suspending the full rights of
          individuals, and it is my belief that late in pregnancy, after the humanness of
          the fetus is established, the state has
          legitimate cause to compel the mother to carry the fetus to term (excluding
          those cases where it would kill the mother).
          The moral calculus is really quite simple here: the right to life vs.
          the right to autonomy, I find that 1. The insult to autonomy is brief and 2. The
          right to life precedes the right to autonomy and to all other rights; and therefore
          the right to life takes precedence.

          So, I would
          like to hear a proper response to my position, having read many articles from
          the anti-Ambrose side I am disappointed at the lack of soundness from the
          arguments I’ve heard. Not a single one
          mentions the life of the baby, this I believe is moral cowardice – we must have
          the courage to acknowledge the full complexity of the world. I would like to hear the defense from someone
          who is capable of articulating a position which is more reasonable than the
          supersonic squawk of AR that ‘the patriarchs are coming to steal our autonomy
          (and all men are heartless, and obsessed with controlling women)’, because it
          is clear to me, that this debate is much more robust.

          Yours most
          sincerely, hbg

          • A. R

            This rebuttal is hilarious! I am an “idiot” but you seem to be incapable of expressing your opinions without casting presumptions on my intelligence because my thoughts do not align with yours. There is nothing fresh here, and these attempts at thought provocation are a regurgitated argument wrapped up in what hbg imagines to be some sort of credibility-building elevated language. It’s old and tired, and does nothing to create understanding or show that you have any “empathy” for the actual repercussions of the lofty debate you’re trying to propagate; while ignoring the actual consequences that follow slaughtering women’s rights. But the truth is, you don’t care, and that is the defining factor.

          • Anon

            Good points A.R. I’ll try my best to remember I don’t have a uterus next time.

            Also, you don’t actually cite concrete realities, as your arguments are about “the private dominion of a woman’s own body, sexuality and her very person-hood.” That’s more abstract and philosophical than anything I’ve said so far. Also, it’s bullshit. If something that has moral standing is living off of a women’s body, you’re damn right she doesn’t have a right to murder it. That’s the issue. I happen to agree with your conclusion on it, but for a whole host of actual reason and for none for the rhetoric you cite.

            Please remember that Henry Morgenthaler was a man and that he made sophisticated legal arguments which won women the right to choose.

          • hbg

            I do stand by my earlier statements, you are an idiot; your characterization men and their interests in the issue is both delusional (on your part) and hilarious (to me). Seriously, men cannot recognize this ethical issue because they lack an organ? The only interests men have is dominating women? lolzies!

            I also find it hilarious that you call me out for calling you names, while responding to everyone in the most patronizing terms possible, even a clueless fuckwit would understand that is about the same thing (which makes you below one of them (I’m helping you by spelling it out)). Dude, your position is thus far is unsupported and far fetched, I’m beginning to suspect that you’re a troll because I’m not sure anyone can actually believe the things you’ve said.

            Yet I feel the need to try one more time, mostly in hopes that I will learn the absolute abortionists position, because so far I have not had it articulated. This will help me gain an understanding of the issue, but at this point I’m also just curious to see if a strong defence exists at all.

            So anyway let’s take this really slow.

            Your position seems to be that women must have autonomy over their bodies at all times concerning reproduction.

            I have presented a case where there is a second human agent, and that in acquiring a late term abortion, you are violating another human’s interests in the most fundamental way you can – by taking their lives.

            I then compared the opposing goods (life vs autonomy) and it seemed clear that life was the more important, if not fundamental, good.

            I then gave some examples of real cases where the state has legitimate interests in temporarily suspending someone’s autonomy and sincerely held beliefs.

            And I concluded that after a period of months, when the humanness of the fetus can no longer be denied, the state has a compelling ground to temporarily suspend the individual’s autonomy, in that the state is preserving a human life.

            (I’m going really slow here)
            So you see, you have presented a position: preserving bodily autonomy. I have presented a case which challenges a specific case of bodily autonomy (however poorly argued).

            Now, any reasonable person knows implicitly that you must defend your belief (which you have not, because I’m not sure you have a defensible position) by:
            1. Explaining why bodily autonomy is more important that human life
            2. showing that an unborn child is not a human
            3. showing that suspending bodily autonomy in this case is unreasonable
            4. whatever other case you want to make
            (I laid these out to help you get started)

            Now, if you’re smart, you’ll (or anyone, I’m genuinely curious) present a case which gives me something to think about, and may in fact sway my position. I have not yet heard such a piece of reasoning, and until I do, I’m justified in this position. You would be reaching across the aisle and helping someone out.

            Or you can continue to be a total clown, fail to respond in a reasonable way, and convince me further that the absolute pro choice side is devoid of a coherent line of reasoning.

            ps I love your prose, it’s really fun and amusing to read, I am in this case envious, however I’m not envious of the vapid apparitions it seems to be full of.

      • Hardy Weinberg

        I see nothing wrong with an emotive response in this case. The legislation, which was highly politicized dealt with women’s rights and women’s bodies. AR has every right to be upset if politicians are calling the shots on her body. Just because her response was emotional doesn’t make it illigitimate. Heck, if the government wanted to take away my rights, I can assure you my response will not be rainbows and unicorns.

        Regarding the Ad hominum attacks. if AR simply started ripping into carter and not provide any counter points then i would say her points were unfair. She has provided counter arguments and used those counter arguments to the author, specifically to step off. if you’re writing an op-ed for the varsity (especially a controversial one) be prepared to deal with counter arguments and evaluation of your arguments.